En Passant

Comment from Dave
Time April 8, 2011 at 11:34 am

LOL…Sheridan is losing his touch, that was one of the lamest attempted takedowns I’ve had the misfortune to read lately.

I wonder though, why is the ALP getting in on the act of smearing the Greens when they are their partners in government?

Comment from Walter
Time April 8, 2011 at 12:56 pm

I have been to South Africa when it was an apartheid state and I have been to most Middle East contries too, including Israel and Gaza. John Passant, I don’t believe you have been to these places, because if you had, you wouldn’t be parroting these slogans.

I will not change your views by pointing out facts, but I will point out that if you had ever witnessed apartheid – and I don’t mean attending anti Springbock rallies in the town square or handing out leaflets, I mean seen it, smelt it, felt it … and then you had seen Israel, Palestine then you would realise what you are saying is plain rubbish.

Why not talk about Saudi Arabia and there refusal to grant women the vote or let them hold any positions of power or office? Why not call for a boycott of Saudi oil and stop driving your car or taking a Canberra bus?

Given the opportunity, one should always see with one’s own eyes what is real and what is told through the filter of blogs, partisan politics and religious fanaticism.

Comment from John
Time April 8, 2011 at 2:04 pm

So why does the South African union movement support BDS? Why does Tutu, who has been to Palestine, say it is apartheid ((http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1957644.stm)? Why did Mandela write this?
‘Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

‘The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.’

Letter from nelson Mandela to Thomas Friedman http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/mandella.html

But maybe you know apartheid better than someone like Nelson Mandela, eh Walter?

Ah, and the usual bullshit about Saudi Arabia. If you want to develop a campaign for rights there and there is a movement we can relate to, happy to join in. Just like I supported and attended the demonstrations here in support of the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions and the Libyan revolution. Where were you Walter? Funny that. What about Bahrain Walter? Want to build a support movement against Saudi occupation there, a good first step in helping liberate Saudi people. Happy to join. Ah but of course, these regimes enjoy US support (and the Saudi invasion of Bahrain was probably given the US green light in exchange for the bombing of Libya). Would Walter be involved in any campaigns against US power? Has he?

Here is a link to the revolutionary socialists of Egypt, an important organiser of 25 January. http://www.e-socialists.net/node/6671

How about you send some money to them to help develop all the Arab revolutions, including deepening the one in Egypt as an important step in winning freedom and justice for all Arab people, including in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen and the like?

Comment from Walter
Time April 8, 2011 at 5:24 pm

John, that’s a very angry response and I’m a bit taken aback. These are not personal attacks on you, these are issues ofor discussion and debate and I’m sorry you have taken my comments as such an afront.

Unlike you, I’ve stood in the ‘white’s only’ queues, been in the ‘white’s only’ hospital, been fed and had my hotel cleaned by the ‘servants’ and seen 21 million people who could not vote, marry across the colour line, hold senior jobs and so on. I have also seen 1.2 million Arabs who can vote and elect their members to parliament, who are not restricted to shop in certain stores, or sit in different parts of the theatre of stadium, who can and do marry different colours and religions. I have seen thousands of Israeli Ethiopians and Christians and Bahai and Muslims all living and working together. I have seen a left wing media (Haaratz) who savage the government without restriction.

By your own admission, you have never lived under repression or a dictatorship – it’s all academic to you. All this socialist ideology coming from the comfort of a well paid job and I presume a house in the suburbs of Canberra?

I genuinely mean no ill will John, but maybe, just maybe, if you actually travelled to Africa and the Middle East and saw things rather than just read stuff at home … well …

To me you’re like someone who has only ever watched Aussie Rules on TV lecturing about how the Pies should play. As we all know, when you go to a game you see the whole field, you see what’s going on in every position and every lead, every aspect. I’d really like you to see the ‘whole game’ in the Middle East, not just watch it on TV.

Regards

Comment from John
Time April 8, 2011 at 5:55 pm

So one can only comment and take action on what has actually experienced? Rules out just about the whole world having an opinion on anything. And it of course elevates you above Mandela and his views on apartheid and Palestine. Why don’t you lecture him to? Have you ever been to Palestine MR Mandela? No? Oh well, you have no right to have a view. But Desmond Tutu has been to Palestine and he says it is like apartheid. Maybe you could tell him your views are superior because…. Well, I am sure you have a reason other than I have been there Desmond.

A pretty dictatorial approach, isn’t it?

We have brains and some of us can use them to reason and draw conclusions based on what we read and analyse. It is in part what makes us human. Physical experience is only one part of the range of what defines us as humans.

I guess if you were to be consistent you’d now be arguing for the withdrawal of US troops from the 130 or so countries they are in because I am pretty sure Obama hasn’t visited them all let alone experienced them in any meaningful sense.

I’ve never been to Saudi Arabia so I can’t comment? I’ve never been to Russia, least of all in 1917, so I can’t form a view and comment? Interesting new approach Walter. I’m not a scientist, so presumably l can’t comment on global warming. I’m not a doctor or a nurse so I can’t comment comment on health care. Am I getting warm Walter?

Excuse my derision.

Comment from Walter
Time April 8, 2011 at 10:09 pm

No, you are not getting warm at all John. In fact, your response was rather tepid. I wasn’t saying this at all, if you read my blog. But then again, what would I know. I’ve only been to these places, but you, you’ve READ about them.

Your derision is based on a rather self inflated view that someone living thousands of miles away can call it so right without getting further afield than their desktop. As for Tutu and Mandella, the former oversaw the ‘truth and reconcilliation’ process that saw murderers and torturers get off scott free just so long as they said sorry; the latter never criticised Mugabe or tried to help the Zimbabwean people!

Nelson is a great man in some respects, but show me where he is helping his brothers in Zimbabwe while they are being starved and tortured by a ruthless dictator. And tell me, is the modern South Africa good for the black man after Tutu decided not to prosecute the masters of apartheid?

They failed their own people. They failed to prosecute the boers and their henchmen. And this is whom you quote about oppression?

Sorry, I stand for the oppressed, not the ones who let off the oppressors.

Comment from MarianK
Time April 9, 2011 at 11:55 am

Walter

As Desmond Tutu recently said, even South Africa never went so far as to declare ‘whites only’ roads. Yet Israel contains roads that only Jewish Israelis can use.

Having said that, South Africa no longer ‘owns’ the word ‘apartheid’, even though the SA government originally coined it.

The word ‘apartheid’ (small ‘a’) has gone into the vernacular to describe any regime that directly or indirectly creates official separate realities for different groups within its own borders – be they ethnic, religious, racial or otherwise. On this basis, Israel definitely qualifies as an apartheid state.

Comment from Gordicans
Time April 9, 2011 at 12:26 pm

There’s not much point in arguing with Sheridan, he’s just a lacky writing as per Rupert’s riding instructions. What we have is a government implementing US foreign policy, aided by public opinion being moulded by News Limited. Any opinion that falls outside of US foreign policy guidelines will be ruthelessly squashed like ants by News Limited.

BTW, for those who rail on about we should look at all injustice, not just palestinian injustice? We (ie Australians) are responsible for Palestinian injustice by our UN vote every year when we line up behind the US and Marshall Islands and vote against Israel moving back to 1967 borders. And because of our ‘other’ political support for the Israeli regime over the years.

Comment from John
Time April 9, 2011 at 12:36 pm

So Mandela stands condemned for not helping Zimbabweans. Do you suggest South Africa invade? Maybe the struggle begins at home, as my 6 comrades and colleagues on trial for treason in Zimbabwe might tell you. Don’t lecture me you pompous know it all while my comrades and colleagues risk their lives against the Mugabe dictatorship and you accuse me of only reading things.

Donate to the solidarity fund: Account Name: CDL–MINE–LINE Worker Solidarity Fund
Deposit reference: Zimbabwe Treason Trialists Solidarity Fund Bank: NEDBANK,
Killarney Branch, PO Box 87157, Houghton, 2041,
South Africa
Branch code: 191 60535 Current Account number: 100 185 3784
SWIFT code: NEDSZAJJ Please email with details of what you have deposited zimtreasontrial@gmail.com

Here is a Guardian report. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/24/zimbabwe-charged-treason-egypt-protests

6 remain charged with treason.

As for Mandela’s failings, my comrades in South Africa and my comrades around the world have made the point (as have I) time and again that national liberation struggles doesn’t address the fundamental problem – capitalism – and as long as capitalism exists economic apartheid would continue. It has. That doesn’t undermine Mandela’s point that Israel is an apartheid state. Someone who spent 27 years of their life in an apartheid jail might know what apartheid looks like.

If you want to attack Mandela I suggest you get a better political understanding of the problems than just stuff about the truth and crime commission. Read any of the International Socialist tendency material on it.

I notice you don’t include COSATU in your blanket denunciation of ‘sellouts’ like Mandela and Tutu from the sidelines. You know – the union group (sometimes) fighting the bosses for a better South Africa, or perhaps driven to fight the bosses by its rank and file, which also just happens to condemn Israeli apartheid.

So what would you have done in South Africa – lined up the apartheid supporters and shot them? By the way Mandela is spelt Mandela, not as you spell it Mandella.

The main struggle is against the enemy at home. Here in Australia by supporting struggles around the world we undermine that local elite and the global network they are part of. And we help even in a small way in the liberation of those who are struggling for a better world either within capitalism or outside it. That is why supporting the call of elements in Palestinian civil society for BDS – not making white man’s judgements from afar whether there are struggles going on or not – is important.

Comment from Walter
Time April 9, 2011 at 1:41 pm

your comrades? What a joke – they are giving their lives for what they believe while the bravest thing you’ve ever done is write an angry letter to the newspaper. Your comrades indeed … maybe you should go over there and support them … what a pathetic double standard you create. Real socialists die for their beliefs, fake ones show faux outrage and hand out leaflets in the suburtbs of Canberra.

Call me when you’ve seen this for real and been on the front line, not a tin pot middle class lefty!

Comment from John
Time April 9, 2011 at 5:06 pm

Thanks Walter. Just about sums you up – a troll who abuses people’s blogs. How would you know one iota of what I have done or do, you contemptible little excuse for a human being? How do you come on to my blog and malign me and my comrades with your shit.

Find somewhere else to spread your vile nonsense you little trumped up conservative prig. I’ll continue building the struggle for better wages, for decent hospitals, for betters schools, for proper public transport, for an end to homophobia and racism. I’ll continue to hand out my leaflets challenging the powers that be as part of that, building my union as best I can, build or support campaigns fighting against oppression and injustice here and around the globe, writing about injustice in the world, supporting those in struggle against power, seeling the magazine Socialist Alternative.

And most importantly I will continue building Socialist Alternative from a small propaganda group which actively supports struggles here to the party of the working class able to lead mass struggles in Australia against the ruling class. For all those in Australia interested in fighting for a better world, you should consider joining Socialist Alternative. http://www.sa.org.au.

I am glad to know, Walter, that you are such a fighter for principle (if not as I strongly suspect some sort of conservative troll). When are you off to fight in Saudi Arabia? We might be able to organise a magnificent farewell party for you.

Many of the international struggles will be highlighted at Marxism 2011 in Melbourne over Easter, with speakers from Lebanon, the US, Chile, the Philippines, Greece and NZ, and world renowned journalists Anand Gopal, an eyewitness in Egypt, and John Pilger on his new film They war you didn’t see. http://www.marxismconference.org/

In years past we have had, for example, Trevor Ngwane from South Africa talk about the ongoing struggles there. It’s a pity Walter has missed and will miss these informative first hand accounts of the struggles in countries around the world. But then again, he might learn something, besides how to troll.

As for your contemptible comment that real socialists ‘die for their beliefs’, they don’t. They fight for them. That is what I am doing.

Comment from Calligula
Time April 10, 2011 at 1:37 pm

Marian,
By your definition Australia is very much an apartheid state.